Comments on: Table Alignment http://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/ Living in a state of accord. Tue, 07 Feb 2012 01:07:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Asbjørn Ulsberghttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173920 Asbjørn Ulsberg Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:00:27 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173920 Ah, excellent. I think it works more than well enough. :) Ah, excellent. I think it works more than well enough. :)

]]> By: Adrian Suttonhttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173919 Adrian Sutton Sat, 21 Mar 2009 11:43:08 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173919 Asbjørn, You'll be pleased to know the site now has comment preview. I'm not 100% happy with the layout of it but it will do for now. I also added openid authentication to verify your comment and skip the moderation queue. Asbjørn,
You’ll be pleased to know the site now has comment preview. I’m not 100% happy with the layout of it but it will do for now.

I also added openid authentication to verify your comment and skip the moderation queue.

]]> By: Adrian Suttonhttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173914 Adrian Sutton Thu, 19 Mar 2009 17:19:05 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173914 We do in fact have a filter in front of the editor, but as always there's problems there too. If the filter aggressively normalizes content into a particular form, clients who want the original form for whatever reason will complain. So you need to preserve the non-normalized form through to the editor and only change things if the author actually changes the values - that means the editor has to deal with all the different variants though. So while the filter can at least guarantee that the content is well-formed and compliant, it still doesn't solve completely normalize the HTML. Even with the filtering levels we have now, which are reasonably tame, we're getting a number of requests for the editor to just leave the HTML as-is. There are unfortunately, no silver bullets to this type of problem - just a whole lot of corner cases. We do in fact have a filter in front of the editor, but as always there’s problems there too. If the filter aggressively normalizes content into a particular form, clients who want the original form for whatever reason will complain. So you need to preserve the non-normalized form through to the editor and only change things if the author actually changes the values – that means the editor has to deal with all the different variants though. So while the filter can at least guarantee that the content is well-formed and compliant, it still doesn’t solve completely normalize the HTML.

Even with the filtering levels we have now, which are reasonably tame, we’re getting a number of requests for the editor to just leave the HTML as-is. There are unfortunately, no silver bullets to this type of problem – just a whole lot of corner cases.

]]> By: Asbjørn Ulsberghttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173913 Asbjørn Ulsberg Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:38:49 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173913 I see your point entirely, but having to deal with odd markup should preferably be up to some kind of filter in front of the editor, so all the oddities are washed away and replaced with valid techniques so that the editor doesn't need to handle all the craziness your customers are generating. That would at least be my take on it. I see your point entirely, but having to deal with odd markup should preferably be up to some kind of filter in front of the editor, so all the oddities are washed away and replaced with valid techniques so that the editor doesn’t need to handle all the craziness your customers are generating. That would at least be my take on it.

]]> By: Adrian Suttonhttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173912 Adrian Sutton Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:49:20 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173912 While the uses for HTMl we generate is varied and does quite often cause issues, the bigger problem is actually the incoming HTML that we have to consume. A HTML editor doesn't always start from a blank document and shouldn't be limited to just the HTML it authored. So we not only have to parse and display arbitrary HTML like browsers do, we have to make it fit into a sensible form within dialogs etc so the user can actually work with it and then somehow produce valid output at the end. Plus any corrections for validity need to render exactly the same in browsers. In other words, we poor editor guys get all the problems the browser guys do, plus all the challenges of the generator guys and few problems specific to editors. Remind me why I work here again? :) While the uses for HTMl we generate is varied and does quite often cause issues, the bigger problem is actually the incoming HTML that we have to consume. A HTML editor doesn’t always start from a blank document and shouldn’t be limited to just the HTML it authored. So we not only have to parse and display arbitrary HTML like browsers do, we have to make it fit into a sensible form within dialogs etc so the user can actually work with it and then somehow produce valid output at the end. Plus any corrections for validity need to render exactly the same in browsers.

In other words, we poor editor guys get all the problems the browser guys do, plus all the challenges of the generator guys and few problems specific to editors. Remind me why I work here again? :)

]]> By: Asbjørn Ulsberghttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173911 Asbjørn Ulsberg Thu, 19 Mar 2009 08:13:18 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173911 If you want your customers to be able to consume the HTML in something different from a regular web browser; yea, indeed. If you want your customers to be able to consume the HTML in something different from a regular web browser; yea, indeed.

]]> By: Andrew Herronhttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173910 Andrew Herron Thu, 19 Mar 2009 00:03:08 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173910 It's true editors only produce HTML, but our customers have to consume it. It's a bit naive to think that someone could produce HTML and then not have to deal with the consequences of people trying to consume it. And believe me, people consume HTML with some pretty strange combinations of software :) It’s true editors only produce HTML, but our customers have to consume it. It’s a bit naive to think that someone could produce HTML and then not have to deal with the consequences of people trying to consume it.

And believe me, people consume HTML with some pretty strange combinations of software :)

]]> By: Asbjørn Ulsberghttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173909 Asbjørn Ulsberg Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:11:24 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173909 My understanding was that you produced HTML, not consumed. I see now that my understand was incorrect, so much of my comment is thus void. Wrt the difference between 'margin: 0 auto' and 'margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto' -- it was only an example and a shortcut. :-) My understanding was that you produced HTML, not consumed. I see now that my understand was incorrect, so much of my comment is thus void. Wrt the difference between ‘margin: 0 auto’ and ‘margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto’ — it was only an example and a shortcut. :-)

]]> By: Adrian Suttonhttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173903 Adrian Sutton Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:44:17 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173903 Oh and yes, comment preview would be nice. So would openid support.... Just need a few round tuits. Oh and yes, comment preview would be nice. So would openid support…. Just need a few round tuits.

]]> By: Adrian Suttonhttp://www.symphonious.net/2009/02/02/table-alignment/comment-page-1/#comment-173902 Adrian Sutton Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:43:47 +0000 http://www.symphonious.net/?p=1068#comment-173902 Except that when you deal with real world HTML you can't just limit things to CSS float and margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto (margin: 0 auto is actually quite different to those two rules as I'm sure you're aware). You're going to encounter HTML that still uses the align attribute. Plus a lot of PDF convertors and most XSLT transformations don't handle CSS well, if at all. If you live in a world where all you care about is the commonly used browsers, life is much easier - sadly, there are just enough other types of HTML parsers and just plain lousy HTML out there to cause lots of problems. Except that when you deal with real world HTML you can’t just limit things to CSS float and margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto (margin: 0 auto is actually quite different to those two rules as I’m sure you’re aware). You’re going to encounter HTML that still uses the align attribute. Plus a lot of PDF convertors and most XSLT transformations don’t handle CSS well, if at all. If you live in a world where all you care about is the commonly used browsers, life is much easier – sadly, there are just enough other types of HTML parsers and just plain lousy HTML out there to cause lots of problems.

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